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battle forged, Stratagems and Command Points 
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Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:50 pm
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So I'm new to 8th, and never played 6 or 7, so I'm not really sure how this works.

As far as I can tell, your army is battle forged if it is made up ENTIRELY of detachments? (With the number of detachments allowed being restricted based on the point limit during organized events?)
- Your opponent's army doesn't HAVE to be battle forged just because your army is right?
- not being battle forged means you just don't get to use stratagems? So you trade off the use of stratagems in exchange for the ability to make any army composition you want?
- is it generally expected that your army be battle forged if you take it to a game store to play against randos?
- do you HAVE to be battle forged for tournament style play?

So once you have a battle forged army you can start accumulating command points as far as I can tell. So you get 3 CP just for being battle forged, and then you get more CP based off what detachments you use?
- so I can take an outrider detachment and still dump a full three troop units in there with it still counting as outriders? (or alternatively I can take a battalion detachment and throw in three fast attack and still have it be an outrider detachment)
- BUT, if I wanted to take an outrider AND and Battalion detachment I'd need 3 total HQ units?
- most of these detachments have the restriction of all the units being from the same faction. Can I take two patrol detachments from two different factions and still be battle forged? Can I take an orc patrol detachment and a guard battalion detachment and still be battle forged? Can I take a guardsman Battalion detachment and an Eldar Flyer in an auxiliary support detachment and just eat the -1 CP in exchange for having some eldar unit as support?
- the dedicated transport rule for most of the detachments says "May include one for each other choice." Does the word "other" mean that you can include one transport for every unit choice that fills a gray slot? (If I take a patrol detachment of one HQ, one troop, and one heavy support then I can only take one transport for the heavy support?)
- so if I make an army with a battalion and a super heavy detachment (two HQ, three troop, three lord of war) then I start the game with 9 CPs? (That'd be an interesting army composition, but still.)

Stratagems I think I get mostly. You just use the command points you got from the detachments through out the game whenever you want to enact the various stratagems allowed in that match?


Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:55 am
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About the dedicated transport rule, it means for every units that is not a dedicated transport, you get to have one. In your example, you'd be entitled to one transport per slot you fill, so id be one for the HQ, one for the troop and one for the heavy, as far as I could understand.

When it concerns Battle Forged, I believe it's too early to know what is expected, but it's safe to assume you'll be facing Battle Forged opponents most of the time. I believe most tournaments will lean towards having to be, but in each one it'd be wise to read the rules specific to the event, ask the organizers, etc. Yes, no Battle Forged, no Command Points, so no Stratagems but gaining the ability to choose your army as you want. Having to be Battle Forged because your opponent is may be something you'll have to work out with him, so whatever suits both players is right, unless you are in a tournament or event that has local rules that state otherwise.

As for your other questions, I'd have to re-read some of the rules to properly address them...


Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:15 am
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Ultstadt wrote:
As far as I can tell, your army is battle forged if it is made up ENTIRELY of detachments? (With the number of detachments allowed being restricted based on the point limit during organized events?)

Precisely.

Ultstadt wrote:
- Your opponent's army doesn't HAVE to be battle forged just because your army is right?
- not being battle forged means you just don't get to use stratagems? So you trade off the use of stratagems in exchange for the ability to make any army composition you want?

And neither Yours needs to be just because opponent's is. At least nothing in the rulebook suggests otherwise.
Also, exactly, not using the battleforged means not having Command Points, so no extra rerolls or stratagems.

Ultstadt wrote:
- is it generally expected that your army be battle forged if you take it to a game store to play against randos?
- do you HAVE to be battle forged for tournament style play?

As insanemachina pointed out, that is up to the local shop, players there and tournament organisers.

Ultstadt wrote:
So once you have a battle forged army you can start accumulating command points as far as I can tell. So you get 3 CP just for being battle forged, and then you get more CP based off what detachments you use?
- so I can take an outrider detachment and still dump a full three troop units in there with it still counting as outriders? (or alternatively I can take a battalion detachment and throw in three fast attack and still have it be an outrider detachment)
- BUT, if I wanted to take an outrider AND and Battalion detachment I'd need 3 total HQ units?

Indeed, total CP depending on detachments choosen. Bear in mind that some detachments (ie. Auxiliary Support) actually lower available CPs.
As far as units go every detachments has the compulsory units (red ones), and the optional ones (grey ones). So after You take the compulsory units You may either start filling another detachment, or add extra units into the optional slots. In abovementioned cases yes, You can add up to 3 Troop choices into the Outrider detachment, and yes, to field Outrider and Battalion detachments You have to have 3 compulsory HQ choices and still have optional space for 2 more (one in each detachment).

Ultstadt wrote:
- most of these detachments have the restriction of all the units being from the same faction. Can I take two patrol detachments from two different factions and still be battle forged? Can I take an orc patrol detachment and a guard battalion detachment and still be battle forged? Can I take a guardsman Battalion detachment and an Eldar Flyer in an auxiliary support detachment and just eat the -1 CP in exchange for having some eldar unit as support?

As dilligently as I read the rulebook, nothing suggests otherwise. Fluffwise in this case I'd suggest using the clan Blood Axe orks, those are known for their mercenary ways.

Ultstadt wrote:
- so if I make an army with a battalion and a super heavy detachment (two HQ, three troop, three lord of war) then I start the game with 9 CPs? (That'd be an interesting army composition, but still.)

Stratagems I think I get mostly. You just use the command points you got from the detachments through out the game whenever you want to enact the various stratagems allowed in that match?

And, in this case aswell, the answers are "yes" and "indeed" respectively, just remember the limit of single CP usage per phase. And yes, it would be an interesting, if significantly model-thin list.

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:37 pm
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Thanks a lot for the replies folks. Lots of help figuring out what the heck I'm doing. :D

So I have a sort of... general forum question that's not really on topic but I didn't want to make a brand new thread some place...

So There's not really an "Imperial Guard" any more as such right? I mean all the adeptus stuff is joined in to one big faction now right? I'm working on an army list and fluff and such (which I'll share when it's done) but Technically my army is going to be "space" marine led but with primarily "guard" units. (essentially using guard units for everything and marine units for a bit of armor and fluff.) I'm just curious what we're reffering to as "Imperial Guard" now. :P


Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:54 am
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Well, anything with the keyword Astra Militarum, I guess....
Astra Militarum is one subfaction of the whole Imperium keyword, so fluffwise you can have detachments from different Imperium subfactions band together for a major effort, but within detachments, I believe they must share a keyword, like Astra Militarum.... So if you wanna mix AM with Cult Mechanicus you'd be needing to take at the very least 2 detachments, one for Astra Militarum and one for those red guys.....


Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:11 pm
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Ultstadt wrote:
So There's not really an "Imperial Guard" any more as such right? I mean all the adeptus stuff is joined in to one big faction now right? I'm working on an army list and fluff and such (which I'll share when it's done) but Technically my army is going to be "space" marine led but with primarily "guard" units. (essentially using guard units for everything and marine units for a bit of armor and fluff.) I'm just curious what we're reffering to as "Imperial Guard" now. :P


The Imperial Guard is anything with the <Astra Militarum> keyword, which includes all <Regiments>, <Officio Prefectus>, <Militarum Tempestus>, <Militarum Auxilla>, <Adeptus Astra Telepathica>, <Aeronatica Imperialis> and the two priests from <<Adeptus Ministorum> keyword units.

As far as I can tell a battleforged army is one that contains legal detachments that all share at least one <keyword>, so anything from the two Imperium indexes, no matter how you build it would be battleforged as they all have the <Imperium> keyword. But an army with a detachment of Orks and a detachment of Space Marines would not be battleforged because they dont share any <keywords>. ( now I could be very wrong here and am happy to be corrected)

insanemachina wrote:
Well, anything with the keyword Astra Militarum, I guess....
Astra Militarum is one subfaction of the whole Imperium keyword, so fluffwise you can have detachments from different Imperium subfactions band together for a major effort, but within detachments, I believe they must share a keyword, like Astra Militarum.... So if you wanna mix AM with Cult Mechanicus you'd be needing to take at the very least 2 detachments, one for Astra Militarum and one for those red guys.....


Both the <Astra Militarum> and <Adeptus Mechanicus> share the keyword <Imperium> and so are legal to be mixed inside a detachment, with the only real downside being that special rules (Orders, canticles) and special character buffs only work on their respective keyword units...

Cheers, Cuthbo

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Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:09 am
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Cuthbo wrote:
Both the <Astra Militarum> and <Adeptus Mechanicus> share the keyword <Imperium> and so are legal to be mixed inside a detachment, with the only real downside being that special rules (Orders, canticles) and special character buffs only work on their respective keyword units...


That's what I was thinkin. The army list I'm building has some adeptus astartes, some adeptus militarum, and some tempestus militarum. Except they all share the Imperium faction keyword, so I can combine them within detachments.

Now that means my company commanders can't give orders to the astartes or tempestus units, but I can bite the "no orders to tempestus" negative and use a space marine captain as one of my 3 HQ units and accomplish the same thing, essentially making my storm troopers a special weapons squad with better armor. I'm still working out the final point values of my 1000 point army list, but it'll be up soon.


Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:47 am
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Thanks for correcting me, as I was clearly wrong, kkkk!!!
Sorry for the misleading advice :D
It's a very different meta now then...


Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:42 am
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It's been said plenty before, but as Guard we have a huge advantage in that we have a lot of cheapish HQ choices, a good compliment of unit choices in each slot, and the ability to get a lot of detachments in one go. That means a lot of command points, and therefore a lot of strategems. Which fits Guard I think, we're supposed to be the lot that have to rely on discipline and tactics.


Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:05 pm
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The downside being that we almost never go first and then when we actually go we have no idea how to act, due to our reactive tactics...


Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:40 pm
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